Tactical Discussion - The Libero

[Dr Barry]

For several FMs now I've been trying to put together a formation utilising the 'libero' or attacking sweeper, and I've always failed miserably. However now with FM10, there's a set of instructions for the libero already in the new tactical interface. So I figured I should go for broke, and see if I (with your help) can put something together.

I'll be using Genoa as my team for this exercise, as their squad only needs one or two additions to fit the desired formation, plus they come with this guy.

Spoiler:

Domenico Criscito - There's a serious lack of proper attacking sweepers in the FM database, and right now he looks like a strong bet.

I'll be using a 5-3-2 formation with wingbacks in this case, although I'm currently undecided on whether to arrange the midfield as a 1-2, with an anchor man behind them, or a 2-1, with an AM in the hole.

There are also other questions that need to be asked, should I set the sweeper as playmaker? Should I set one of the midfielders as such or leave it blank? Should I set the sweeper to support or attacking mentality.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[Shrewnaldo]

Good idea, Barry. Be interested to see how this works.

A DMC could be problematic if you are planning on having the sweeper step out from defence, for the simple reason that, if he's set to be primarily defensive, he may look to occupy the same area on the pitch as the libero.

This would then limit his creativity as he would also have the DMC's marker to contend with when coming out with the ball.

I reckon two defensive CMs and a more attacking AMC would be better.

Just my thoughts though, I've been very wrong in the past!!

[Dr Barry]

I've had that thought, although I'm honestly not sure how high up the pitch he's likely to roam, with a DM they could occupy the same space.

However, if he roams further forwards then a DM might be necessary, seeing as three out of five defenders will be bombing forwards.

[Shrewnaldo]

If you have the two MCs as primarily defensive, holding their positions in front of the libero as a screen then this should allow the wing-backs license to get foward. The two MCs should be able to 'spoil' any quick counters along the ground; and, if the opposition are forced to go over the top of them, the two DCs can handle the aerial stuff.

As long as you can stop the quick counter attacks then this should give the wing-backs time to get back and defend.

The other option is to go with Genoa's traditional three up front and rely on your libero playing it long, either to a targetman through the middle or the gaps behind the defence for the two wider strikers to run on to?

[JoseFelipe]

I have tried this before and too failed. The libero most likely won't go beyond the halfway line as in the German & Dutch sides of old, he would effectivley be playing as free roaming DM. So I would go with an AM or jus 3xCM's.

As you mentioned the biggest stumbling block to this is finding the right person for the job, as they are very uncommon irl these days.

[Dr Barry]

For reference, this is most likely the team I'll be going with:

GK: Ameilia - Scarpi

SW: Criscito - Morretti
CB: Papasthathopulos - Biava
CB: Bochetta - Esposito
RWB: Mesto - Rossi
LWB: New Player - Modesto

CM: Zapater - New Player
CM: Juric - Milanetto
AM: New Player - Kharja

ST: Palacio - Floccari
ST: Crespo - Figueroa

The centre mids will be divided into a ball winner and an orthodox CM, both with 'defend' duties. The AMC I'm not sure about, I may start him as a vanilla AM and have the libero set as playmaker.

Genoa are an odd squad in that they seem to start with a several really good players on loan, so if things work out I can look forward to picking up Acquafresca, Bolzoni, Forestini, Vanden Borre and several others next season. Most of my cash this year will be sunk into a quality AMC and left wingback, the latter probably Monzon.

[Showstopper]

Interesting topic

I think like in real life, their is a lack of Libero's in the classic sense and thats reflected in FM

I think if I was looking to play with an attack minded Libero, I'd lean towards re-training a midfielder rather then selecting a CB who can play sweeper. The big problems with CB's playing the role as I see it, is they are defensive sweepers and going forward they do not have the creativity of the libero. I'd use Sammer or Mathaeus as an example. Both were midfielders before they were converted

As the Libero would not be responsible for directly marking an opponent I also think his important defensive stats would differ greatly from a CB

I would see the important stats as being

Tackling
Anticipation
Positioning
off the Ball
Decisions
Passing
Creativity
Concentration
First touch

I think also that he would need to be set up as purely an attacking player with high creative freedom

[Shrewnaldo]

You running this using the wizard and new tactical interface then Barry?

Or using that to kick it off then converting to classic and tweaking?

[Dr Barry]

I really don't see any need to use classic any more, once it's been set up in the wizard you can still tweak it every bit as much without converting.

[JoseFelipe]

Originally Posted by Dr Barry

I really don't see any need to use classic any more, once it's been set up in the wizard you can still tweak it every bit as much without converting.

I agree, no need to convert back to classic - you can still tweak nearly everything (expect selecting multiple Targetmen/playmakers). Only reason to convert would be to use the tactic in FM09??

[Forza Hellas]

I used a libero last year with a fair bit of success.

I had the player joining the attack and spraying passes about as well as making the odd surge into the box.

The key is in accepting the defensive limitations of the system. I used two mc's purely as shielding players that would sit slightly further back and cover for the libero as he moved up the pitch.

It will be interesting to see how you go using the new creator for this.

[Dr Barry]

For those who are interested, here is what the tactics creator spits out for an attacking libero:

Spoiler:

Is this similar to your setup Forza?

[SD]

I'll be very interested to see how this turns out for you, Barry. I've recently been experimenting with a sweeper, (with little success) although I've been trying to create the primarily defensive sweeper.

I've found things extremely difficult from a defensive point of view, with regards to marking and getting the three at the back to work effectively.

Good luck, anyway.

[Dr Barry]

Originally Posted by Showstopper

Interesting topic

I think like in real life, their is a lack of Libero's in the classic sense and thats reflected in FM

I think if I was looking to play with an attack minded Libero, I'd lean towards re-training a midfielder rather then selecting a CB who can play sweeper. The big problems with CB's playing the role as I see it, is they are defensive sweepers and going forward they do not have the creativity of the libero. I'd use Sammer or Mathaeus as an example. Both were midfielders before they were converted

Interesting idea, makes me glad I went for Criscito, who may have started in defence but is currently a SW, DLC, WBL, ML, with a decent amount of training in centre midfield too, his stats have gone up a little since the first screenshot, so meets your requirements with:

Tackling - 16
Anticipation - 19
Positioning - 17
Off the Ball - 16
Decisions - 13
Passing - 15
Creativity - 14
Concentration - 14
First touch - 14
Technique (which I've added to your list) - 17

Not perfect by any means, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find a better libero at the start of the game, only 22 too.

[Dr Barry]

Anyway, update.

After a few preliminary feeling out games with the suggested tactic of two holding midfielders and an AM, I'm a little concerned.

While we're playing well and winning games, the sweeper himself is rarely involved. He tends to move only a little way up the pitch, nestling behind the two holding CMs, who rarely look to pass it back to him, even when he's set as a playmaker Essentially he's forming the base of a midfield diamond, except that he retreats on the defence, making him not particularly useful.

With this in mind I'm going to try to change things up, using a DM as an anchor, and two attacking CMs. Essentially I'm gambling that with only one man on defensive instructions the Sweeper won't lurk behind him, but will instead join and/or overlap him. The idea is that the two of them will move into the space vacated by the centre mids, with the libero acting like a deep playmaker, dictating the game from behind the attacking line.

As a sidenote, I'm also trying to teach Criscito the PPM, 'gets forward often' in order to move him up the pitch more.

I hope.

[England Away]

Don't know if you have tried this or not.

I would put the back four on man-marking and the sweeper/libero on zonal.

I would only use a DMC at the expense of a centre back. No need to have 4 players in a block at the back. So a 2mc/1amc or even a flat in midfield.

The whole sweeper era died in the 80s and is perhaps not the best now against teams who play 1 striker only as you just concede territory and possession. Maybe read up on how the coaches of the old Italian teams did it.

[JoseFelipe]

Originally Posted by Dr Barry

While we're playing well and winning games, the sweeper himself is rarely involved. He tends to move only a little way up the pitch, nestling behind the two holding CMs, who rarely look to pass it back to him, even when he's set as a playmaker Essentially he's forming the base of a midfield diamond, except that he retreats on the defence, making him not particularly useful.

I kinda thought that would happen, even as a sweeper, the game instills him as defensive player and he will rarely venture forward. Its wierd that they dont pass to him though? maybe he has bad communication stats? I play a defensive DM playmaker, but he still gets plenty of ball, although quite abit of it is when he wins it himself.

Originally Posted by Dr Barry

As a sidenote, I'm also trying to teach Criscito the PPM, 'gets forward often' in order to move him up the pitch more.

This may be the best option, if not the obvious one, but still doesnt look very promising.

[Dr Barry]

So far you've been pretty much right Jose, no matter how attacking his instructions are he simply won't move sufficiently upfield, regardless of how far up the pitch his fellow midfielders are.

I'd be very interested to know what instructions Forza used for his libero last year, because he sounds like he got the attacking part working.

[Forza Hellas]

Originally Posted by Dr Barry

For those who are interested, here is what the tactics creator spits out for an attacking libero:

Spoiler:

Is this similar to your setup Forza?

Sorry it took so long. I dug out a screenshot of my libero instructions from '09 which can be found here.

I found that simplicity was the key after a few failed attempts. Giving the player high mentality and creative freedom enables him to make the forward runs to join play higher up the pitch.

I was happy to keep the majority of other settings dead centre and rely on the player in question to make the right decision at the right time.

If you are playing with a libero then you are going to need an intelligent Baresi type to get the best out of him.

[Dr Barry]

Well I've given Forza's instructions a run of games now, and I honestly, I think I give up.

No matter what I do, the sweeper simply refuses to go forwards, he barely crosses the half way line most games.

If anyone else wants to take up the challenge, please do, and respond in here, I'd love to see this working, but it's beyond me.

[King Kanny]

Originally Posted by Dr Barry

Well I've given Forza's instructions a run of games now, and I honestly, I think I give up.

No matter what I do, the sweeper simply refuses to go forwards, he barely crosses the half way line most games.

If anyone else wants to take up the challenge, please do, and respond in here, I'd love to see this working, but it's beyond me.

I have to agree with you I had a go but although I can get him involved in the play up to the middle of the park he never goes any further. He did score once - but it was from a corner. I just don't think it can be done in the way you want and I also feel it is a bit redundant in the modern game as we tend to have a lot of loan strikers and as a sweeper moves forward he would have to get past a striker an attacking midfield and defensive midfield to be effective as opposed to the flatter banks of players in older formations which he could play/ move between.

[Hulls Tiger]

I'm giving this a go in China, I'll see if I can get it going, though from what I have seen, it doesn't seem to work very well to be honest. If I make any improvements, then I'll let you know.

[IJ]

Once I get Foggia to the point I am able to buy who I want easily, I'll certainly pick this up and let you know how I get on. 3-4-3 is my desired eventual formation and an attacking libero would be perfect for that system.

[England Away]

Have you ever given the libero a 'free role' to see if that opens up he's attacking ambitions?

[Showstopper]

Originally Posted by England Away

Have you ever given the libero a 'free role' to see if that opens up he's attacking ambitions?

Could be a good idea. Also what about the PPM's? - Looks to get forward whenever possible may encourage him past the halfway line

[Hulls Tiger]

I have tried this for a season and have got no further with it. They just act like confused CBs. I will try the free role and will teach him likes to get forward whenever possible I reckon. After that, I haven't a ckue what to do.

[JoseFelipe]

In FM07, I had a pretty defensive formation (3xDC & 2xDM) so in an attempt to counter balance this, i instructed my DMs to tear forward and instructed the central DC (not a SW) to play the Libero role. It worked superbly back then.

When attacking my DM's would usually be lurking outside the opposition box, ready to either rip in a shot from range or spray a pass out wide for the cross. My Libero then whom I gave creative freedom lurked just inside my half. He was however instrumental in the build up play, with my DM's usually winning the ball and laying it to him to start some sort of attacking move.

I was very successfull with this in FM07, but have failed to emulate it ever again (believe me I have tried) - mainly owing to how good wingers are these days (I had no fullbacks or wingbacks).

Im still of the opinion that the idea of and attacking DM played together with a playmaking DC Libero can work tho.

[Hulls Tiger]

That sounds interesting actually, I might try a CB libero if I can't make the SW one work. Cheers for that idea.

[JoseFelipe]

no prob, please do let me know if it works out. I cant try it yet as my defence is still shakey at best and I dont have a good enough DC yet either.
(did I mention the DC, should have decent passing, decisions & creativity stats)

[uranows]

I think Criscito would be a good libero only for opponents that use man and tight marking on your forwards and don't have a good ball winner on the midfield. The only problem I see is the lack of dribbling skill, that will make him a easy catch for good ball winners.

IMO a libero needs to win a ball and be a surprise for the opposite defence, then act in 3 possible ways:
- Attack role -> shoot on goal
- Attack role -> near box - pass to a striker (sliding the Long Shots to Rarely and learning Look to Pass instead of shoot)
- Support role -> midfield - through ball

In this three categories, Criscito fits well in the second one because he lacks long shooting skill but still has fair passing.

I tried with other players but I couldnt find one with decent decision-anticipation-acceleration-dribbling skills. Although today when I was playing against a team using 4-4-2 very wide marking my forwards very tightly and with an AMC and a creative MC, I did think that maybe using a player like Criscito acting as a Libero would be the salvation for that game and also his good determination would be key to comeback with a victory.

[Nick]

If anyone is still trying/wants to try this, look no further than Jack Rodwell for a libero.

[Raoul Duke]

Originally Posted by Nick

If anyone is still trying/wants to try this, look no further than Jack Rodwell for a libero.

I was going to suggest him.

I had a thought while reading this - why not try an inverted Libero, a stupid name I just made up, and possibly unworkable:

If there exists a player out there who's capable of playing everything/most positions from AMC-MC-DMC-CB (perhaps a slightly retrained Rodwell) would it be possible to play him high up the pitch but with high defensive mentality? So in effect the AMC becomes, if not a sweeper, a CB. Dropping back to help out in defence but by default, playing in an advanced role.

Or is that crazy talk?

There's a couple of interesting articles on the Guardian about this position:

- http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog...develop-decade
- http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/b...tactics-trends

[Guido]

Dump the sweeper idea, go for a three man defence consisting of a one covering central defender and two stoppers. This match engine doesn't suit sweepers.

Incidentally, http://www.thedugout.tv/community/sh...2&postcount=23

[Hulls Tiger]

I think, as Guido rightly says, to get this to work, you will need three CBs rather than a sweeper. I'd never heard of Ausputzer Guido. Well, I'd never heard the name of course I knew the role. So that is how to differenciate between the two types, a libero and an ausputzer.

[Forza Hellas]

Right I have a bit more time now so I am going to spend some time building a tactic with a working libero. The shape will probably be something similar to the one I used in China on '09 so 1-2-2-2-2-1.

With a bit of luck Barry wont mind me hijacking his thread but I will provide as much detail and as many screenshots as I can along the way.

[Hulls Tiger]

Nice one Forza, I haven't been able to crack it so if you can, that will be helpful for later tactics I may make using a libero.

[Reiver]

I'll also be quite interested in this.

[Ben]

I had a quick attempt at creating a libero with Atalanta, retraining Edgar Barreto to a SW. It worked a little bit, but if Forza get's any where with his idea, I may continue to develop my own.

[Forza Hellas]

My first thoughts since posting my intentions to do this have been to do away with wingbacks and use fullbacks that get forward when the opportunity presents itself.

I am also thinking about trying a trick I used on last years game and using both central midfielders in a defensive capacity as a shield to allow the libero to push forward without causing problems defensively.

I should be able to make a start tomorrow and with a bit of luck if you guys can continue to contribute ideas then we can crack it.

[Ben]

Originally Posted by Forza Hellas

My first thoughts since posting my intentions to do this have been to do away with wingbacks and use fullbacks that get forward when the opportunity presents itself.

I am also thinking about trying a trick I used on last years game and using both central midfielders in a defensive capacity as a shield to allow the libero to push forward without causing problems defensively.

I should be able to make a start tomorrow and with a bit of luck if you guys can continue to contribute ideas then we can crack it.

When I made the tactic for my liberio, I focused on a 1-4-4-1, with the centre backs and the full backs pretty defensive, allowing the libero a lot of freedom and still keeping us tight at the back if he made a mistake. I focused on highly attacking wingers with supporting midfielders, and the libero often made a 3rd central midfielder in attacking situations.

[Forza Hellas]

Originally Posted by Ben

When I made the tactic for my liberio, I focused on a 1-4-4-1, with the centre backs and the full backs pretty defensive, allowing the libero a lot of freedom and still keeping us tight at the back if he made a mistake. I focused on highly attacking wingers with supporting midfielders, and the libero often made a 3rd central midfielder in attacking situations.

I would prefer the libero to operate in the space between the central midfielders and the striker. This should be possible using a combination of mentality and creative freedom.

The rest of the team should operate on a more global setting so they move forwards and backwards in unison with the libero being the only variable. That make sense?

[Ben]

Originally Posted by Forza Hellas

I would prefer the libero to operate in the space between the central midfielders and the striker. This should be possible using a combination of mentality and creative freedom.

The rest of the team should operate on a more global setting so they move forwards and backwards in unison with the libero being the only variable. That make sense?

Yeah, I agree. I probably was asking a little too much in getting my Libero to operate everywhere from a CB to an AMC, which may have led to the bad results. I'm going to fire up a new game, and have another go.

Firstly, I'm going into the editor to make Edgar Barreto an accomplished sweeper, as I want this experiment to run from the start, not 6 months into the game...

[Reiver]

Forza, your idea is quite similar to what I'll be trying to do - probably not this season, but hopefully from next season onwards.

[Millie]

I think as football moves forward the libero may simply be a spare DC.

If you notice, Thomas Vermaelen is starting to do it a lot for Arsenal - bombing up from the back to smack shots in from just outside the area or play give-and-go passes with the midfielders.

If you think about it, playing three central defenders against a 4-5-1 is pretty pointless. Unless you have two liberi you're effectively taking three men to mark one striker, reducing your options elsewhere on the pitch. Since teams seem to be moving to 4-5-1, it seems like the libero as a sweeper is probably a dead concept (until a new formation is in vogue).

So, I wonder if you really have one of two options. Either play a 1-3 defence with a SW and DC. Or play a "normal" defence, but have one of the DCs with the freedom to make forward runs and make creative passes.

As yet, the Tactics Creator doesn't let you do that, so you'd need to do it in classic. However, I believe it will be in a newer version of FML and possibly FM11.

Jonathan Wilson talks about sweepers a bit in his article on how he perceives tactics might change in the next decade.

I did a little bit about it, also, but I think
Fantastic's posts in this thread on Los Wonderkids are probably a better (and slightly more up-to-date) discussion.

Interested to hear what you do with it, though, Forza. Should be useful for those working on the Tactics Creator, since I completely agree: sweepers aren't well coded in this ME or in the TC.

[Cirdan]

I'd have to agree with the logic of the attacking CB. To me, it seems the logical development of the "split" pair of centrebacks, who are distinguished not so much by which side of centre they play on, but by whether they'll close down the ball carrier (the "stopper") or remain deep and try to anticipate how the opposition will attempt to get past their partner (the "cover"). Now, the roles dictate two complementary defenders--the stopper is a 'classic' centreback, who must foremost be a strong defender who can take the ball off an attacking player trying to run with it, while the cover must be fast and intelligent to make interceptions if the ball carrier tries to pass instead. That's of course a gross oversimplification, but it does accurately describe the difference between the two types of centreback.

Now, the split defence is already a move away from zonal marking, since the two CBs now effectively share a zone in which they divide responsability according to the opposing players' roles and not their respective positioning. When the opposition only field one forward, at least one of the CBs will regularly find himself in space, while man-marking the forward is tempting, especially as the modern striker will roam laterally quite a lot. Since the cover CB is generally fast and skillfull (by CB standards at least), it then becomes a logical secondary role for him to use the space afforded him to launch counters directly, instead of relying on the traditional hoofed clearance or short pass to a deep midfielder.

Once you have a CB who can pass accurately, you've a ball-playing defender who has the skills to effectively join in construction and will (at least against opponents with a single forward) have the freedom to do so, while his partner man-marks the opposition's lone striker. And that leads directly to players like Piqué or Vermaelen charging forwards to join the attack from a deep position and overload the opposing defence; this is especially advantageous as the single, on the face of things, will present a reduced goal threat if he doesn't receive increased support from the other players.

In a sense, you could see that football's coming full circle since the 2-3-5, because rather than having a few dedicated attacking players and everyone else playing a part in defence (as is often the case in 4-4-2), in a team like Arsenal or Barcelona, you'll have a few dedicated defenders who'll (almost) always stay back and most of the squad participating in attack. The way of the future appears to be less forwards but more players attacking from deep.

[GoD-Soviet]

Well in my Bolton game I always picked Cahill as attacking libero with only one DM (Muamba). He was doing very well (just don't give him a chance to shoot), even if he passes the ball to DM or CM they we're giving her back after he moved forward and leaving some of opposite players. Maybe it was just luck but in 15 games? No free role and no playmaker was set. Try it or if You wanna I can play a few games and give a couple of screnshots.

[Forza Hellas]

Right I have a bit of time so I can get this started.

I picked Milan as the team to test my ideas since they have players that fit the roles I have in mind perfectly.

I will be setting the team up like this..



With team instructions like this...



While Pirlo will have the following settings..



I will test the theories over the course of 5 games or so and then come back with the results along with pretty screenshots. If we take it from there we should be able to tweak until the libero works as he should.

[Warchicken]

Hey guys have just read this thread because I am about to try the same system. I picked up Gojko Kacar in FM09 and hes a fantastic ball winning/carrying/playing centre back, defensive midfielder and central midfielder. I'd recommend paying the £5-7 million needed to grab him and retrain him for the role. If memory serves correctly he is early 20s too.

Good luck to all of you.

[thegaffa]

Originally Posted by Dr Barry

Well I've given Forza's instructions a run of games now, and I honestly, I think I give up.

No matter what I do, the sweeper simply refuses to go forwards, he barely crosses the half way line most games.

If anyone else wants to take up the challenge, please do, and respond in here, I'd love to see this working, but it's beyond me.

No dont give up I think I have the solution for you!

I played this formation with a 4th place finish as Man City in my first save on 10.

Gk

SW
DC DC

W M M W
AM
ST ST

My main instructions for my Libero were as follows:

Primary playmaker, free role, keeper always rolls the ball to him and we play counter attack. It was fantastic! The "Lampard late burst" became his trademark.

BTW: I searched "Defender" with passing and creativity about 16/17 (I think - it was a while ago now) and the best return for my money was Edmilson. £2.5M. He chipped in with about 10 goals all from long range over the season. My team:

GIVEN

EDMILSON
ONOUHA RICHARDS

SWP BARRY IRELAND ROBINHO

RIQUELME
TEVEZ ADEBAYOR

As I said, I finished 4th, but abonded it for my second season because A: Edmilson's old, B: Chilleni wouldn't come and take over, and C: I wanted to play Offside.

[JoseFelipe]

Why did you want to play offside? Was there perhaps a weakness in your Libero formation that you not telling us?